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Author
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Topic: Controversial Music
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Alie
One of the Regulars
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posted 12-07-2000 06:15 PM
   
OK, I was just watching MTV (not TRL thankyouverymuch) and they were doing a show on Eminem's music and all these people I don't know got to say how they felt about it and I didn't agree with any of them. I figured since I feel I have differernt view on it, why not let people I don't know read about it so they can want to throw a shoe at their computer screens just like I wanted to throw one at my TV. Besides, we need some more variety in this here forum.OK, on to my point, which is. . . people will think what they want not matter what. You can tell them they're wrong, stupid, or take away their right to express it. They will still think that way. I don't like clowns. I think they are ugly, unhumorous, and scary at times, but I'm not going to take away your right to go to a circus. I can't, that's a violation of your freedom. I feel the same way about Eminem's music. I don't agree with many of his views, but if he feels that way, and even if he doesn't, he still has the right to say it. If you don't like it, don't listen. It's very simple. But you might say, "His lyrics encourages children to think bad things about gays and women." Guess what, that's what parents are for. If kids are taught acceptance, they'll practice acceptance. When they're older and if they decide they don't want to be accepting (I wouldn't know why) they will not be, regardless of what Eminem says. Eminem is a role model, but he's not the only one, so if parents act as a positive role model early on, then their child won't look to someone like Eminem later in life. What happened to kids wanting to be like firefighters anyway? They seem to be good enough role models to me. [This message has been edited by Alie (edited 12-09-2000).] |
BJ
One of the Regulars
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posted 12-07-2000 11:14 PM
Right on Alie! Parents need to stop letting the T.V. and other forms of media babysit their children. Too many times I hear parents say that music and T.V. are too violent, they will make their children do evil acts and kill people. GROW UP! If you are there to provide them with a sense of right or wrong, they will not be so inclined to commit unlawful acts. I am the perfect example of how the media cannot drive a child to violence. I watched violent movies as a kid, I played the violent and bloodey games, I listen to the "devil music" of Metallica, AC/DC, and the like and I am one of the least violent people you might know. I actually work to avoid conflicts when I can, but sometimes my brother just gets to damn annoying. 
Know I won't say that I am not desensitised to violence. I could probably see someone get killed and not worry too much. Truth is, I try to think of what it would be like if I found my parents dead, and I don't see myself being too emotional. I'm not saying it is a sure thing, but I might not. The things that bring tears to my eyes are sad movies. Confession: I cried at the end Titanic. It really hit me hard. I was able to hold back the end of The Perfect Storm.
Well, now that I have given you guys a glimpse into my personal life, I will dismount the soap box and defer to the next person. |
Kevin Ott
True Believer
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posted 12-08-2000 12:08 AM
Marilyn Manson has said he's hoping for a Bush presidency because art thrives under oppressive governments. Actually, what he said sounded more like it'll give him more people in power to piss off, which is something the rebel in me can't deny the appeal of. But if I decide to wholeheartedly embrace that belief, I'm not sure I like having somebody like Marilyn on my side. Oh well. Strange bedfellows, I guess.Guys, I agree with what you're saying about pop music and the effect it has on kids, and that parents should be the final voice in how their kids are raised. But it's kind of a shame that someone like Eminem, who sings about ideas only the most repugnant of us embrace, has to be the one to carry the flag of free speech. It stinks to say, but a society that truly values freedom of speech and artistic expression needs people like Em and Marilyn and Howard Stern and that 2-Live Crew guy who was big in the early 90s. Those artists (and they are artists, whether you like it or not) who perenially push the boundaries of what speech is considered acceptible. Without people like these to constantly create the questions they create, it might be harder for those of us with more palatable but less orthodox messages to make ourselves heard. I think those of us who choose to blast shock-rappers and schlock-artists should remember the turnover time involved in popular culture. These days, who really cares what Alice Cooper has to say? And because of Cooper's craziness (I like "Eighteen" and "School's Out for the Summer"), Marilyn Manson really shouldn't be taken as anything new. People who take Eminem seriously should search their memories of the past few decades. I'm sure they'd find something comparable. |
Dave Thomer
Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 12-08-2000 12:11 AM
I'm of two minds about this. I'm a big supporter of the First Amendment, and I agree that we need to foster an atmosphere of parental responsibility. That said, pop culture is so pervasive and overwhelming, it can be hard for even a good parent to overcome bad messages. A parent can try and restrict a child's viewing, or try to explain why the messages in some pop culture is bad, but then the kid can just go over to a more permissive friend's house and watch or listen, or have his/her peer group extol the bad message as "cool."The easy answer to this is, "If the parents do their job right, none of that matters." I disagree. A person is formed/influenced by the total environment that they experience, so it always matters. Quick example: right after college, I worked at Omni Internet, a website about science and technology. Omni happened to be owned by the publisher of Penthouse magazine, and so I could not go to work without being surrounded by pornographic paintings, magazines, ad copy, etc. It was an environment in which I personally had a hard time working, because I was constantly trying to drown out the images that were surrounding me -- even though I immediately rejected the thoughts that those images suggested, I knew I would be happier and less conflicted if I got away from the images altogether, which I eventually did. Now, the other way out of that tension was to accept and embrace the images and the thoughts they suggested, and I can see how someone whose character is still highly malleable might take that path instead. Rejecting one racist, misogynistic, gay-bashing, violent message is relatively easy; rejecting many is harder. None of this is to say that I think culture and media ought to be restricted (although the marketing of said culture probably should be), but that I understand the concern. I also think criticizing bad messages in the media, and explaining why they're bad, is important, to make sure that people are exposed to both types of messages. But that criticism should be done in a calm, reasonable, rational way -- like we do around here -- and not in the shrill tones that many cultural moralists use. (You listening to me, William Bennett? And Joe Liebermann, love ya, man, but either get the PTC to tone it down or get the hell off their board.) |
Kevin Ott
True Believer
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posted 12-08-2000 11:17 AM
You're right, Dave, about the notion that several factors in one's environment make up what a person is (Perhaps we could start a nature/nurture debate over in the Philossphy threads). It's hard to reject offensive material, and it's even harder to try to get someone else to reject that material, and that difficulty is squared when you're dealing with kids. When that material is part of an overwhelming popular culture, as our friends in the Casa Nostra say: fuggetaboutit.But the point is that while pop culture may exert a strong influence over kids, it's still only one influence. Parents, educators, mentors, and friends still have a pretty good shot. And parents aren't the only ones that can exert a positive, Eminem-cancelling influence on kids. I don't have any kids, but I know quite a few of them, and I occasionally get opportunities to deal with kids in a group setting. I take every opportunity I can to be the kind of person a little kid would want to be, and I take that really seriously. We all should. And having seen my fair share of Penthouse, Dave, I sympathize with your situation. Pornography is one thing; the vileness embraced by that magazine, which seems to stand out as an unfortunately popular example of erotica at its basest, is quite another. |
Dave Thomer
Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 12-22-2000 02:48 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Ott:
But the point is that while pop culture may exert a strong influence over kids, it's still only one influence. Parents, educators, mentors, and friends still have a pretty good shot. And parents aren't the only ones that can exert a positive, Eminem-cancelling influence on kids. I don't have any kids, but I know quite a few of them, and I occasionally get opportunities to deal with kids in a group setting. I take every opportunity I can to be the kind of person a little kid would want to be, and I take that really seriously. We all should.
I agree with you 100% here Kev -- but the important thing in what you say, that I don't hear a lot of Eminem/gangsta rap/whatever defenders acknowledge, is that pop culture does send a message and it does influence kids. I think too many artists deny that, and try to duck their responsibility by saying that if they influence anyone, it's because there was something already wrong. I'm not saying artists should never say anything offensive or shocking or that might be interpreted the wrong way. I just want them to acknowledge and appreciate the power they have, and to take it seriously. |
Dave Thomer
Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 01-18-2001 03:48 AM
It's not quite the nature vs. nurture thread you were suggesting, Kev, but the Free Will thread on the Philosophy forum touches on some of the issues we're raising here, at least tangentially. | |
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