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Author
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Topic: Apples to Apples (Nov. 2000)
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Kevin Ott True Believer
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posted 10-29-2000 10:20 PM
A while after Dave wrote this, he and I were discussing some of the ideas he presented in this piece, particularly the notion that if you invest a few dollars in the public school system, you'll likely see positive results in the forms of higher test scores and smarter students. I've also had conversations with people that seemed to agree with Doyle's idea that there's not a real connection between student performance and per-student spending, that "throwing money at the problem" simply won't right the fundamental wrongs in American classrooms.OK. First off, let's talk about the language a lot of people use to describe this problem, that idea of "throwing money" at it. I hear this term a lot, and like a lot of political rhetoric, I'm never quite sure what it means, and unfortunately there's no polemic-to-English dictionary around to help out those of us that aren't Washington insiders. So let's pick it apart William Safire-style. Throwing money at something seems to indicate that you're sending public funds in the general direction of a problem without any rhyme or reason. In this case, it might mean state capitols funneling money into school districts' budgets, increasing dollars garnered from tax revenues without earmarking any specific purposes for it. Or a school district itself noticing a number of problems and increasing property taxes to compensate. Based on the general context of a lot of arguments I've heard and editorials I've read, that seems to be a pretty good definition of the term. And it makes a lot of sense, but for one thing: It doesn't make any sense. By that definition, it's impossible to throw money at anything. That's what line items in budgets are for. That's what business managers in school districts are for. That's what state fiscal year budgets are for. That's what competitive grant applications are for. You can't just grab money from a source - especially tax revenues - without knowing where you're going to put it. In Pennsylvania, there are a heck of a lot of school administrators applying for a heck of a lot of competitive grants to get new stuff for their classrooms and new training opportunities for their teachers. And there are a heck of a lot of business managers saying no to a heck of a lot of high school teachers and coaches because whatever they're requesting wasn't outlined in the budget. So it's not really possible to throw money at our schools, and anyone who uses that term is simply turning the situation into a cartoon. But that's just according to my definition. Now let's get back to this idea of more funding leading to better students - I've heard some folks mention that there's more of a connection between poor performance and bad neighborhoods. The schools with a lousier showing in the standardized test department generally happen to be in worse neighborhoods than the ones that get better scores, he says. In a big way, that's totally correct. That's why Teach For America sends its teachers to schools in Compton and the Ozarks rather than to Westchester. Poor schools tend to be in poor neighborhoods. Steve might think that idea renders the funding issue moot, since a school will only be as good as the neighborhood it's in. But instead, it creates a need to spend even more money to fix the problem. If a bad school is bad because the neighborhood that surrounds it creates a negative learning environment, then it stands to reason that improvement would lie in bettering the neighborhood. As Rudy Giuliani knows, revitalizing a neighborhood costs money. Either in improving the infrastructure or hiring an economic development team, you're gonna spend somebody's money somewhere. Anyway. I tend to fall into the teachers-as-heroes camp. Give 'em all the benefits they want and put Regis Philbin in charge of their salaries. They're in charge of our kids' futures, so let's make sure we only hire the absolute best ones, and then put 'em on easy street for their troubles. Heck, it'll feel better than building more prisons.
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Pattie Gillett True Believer
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posted 11-02-2000 10:59 PM
It’s been a long time since I’ve been called a communist, at least a couple of years, anyway. (It probably happened during the ’96 presidential campaign now that I think about it.) But that’s exactly what happened when I started to discuss this issue with someone who is typically fairly open-minded. I simply tried to explain this basic point: using property taxes to determine school funding is an inherent inequality that feeds upon itself. Guess what I was told? First, this person said that 1) The idea that schools could be funded any other way, especially by distributing tax funds equally among districts, was simply communist rhetoric; and 2) people in suburban areas spend more on their homes and spend more on their property taxes and are entitled to have better schools. Well, I guess we can all pack up and go home then. This whole fairness and equal opportunity thing was a nifty idea but it just doesn’t work for everybody. The battle to reform the schools will continue to be an uphill battle as long as suburban dwellers hold the following key prejudices about cities: * city schools are inherently wasteful, and whatever money we “throw” at them will be misused; * city teachers don’t care about students and are the real reasons for low scores; * city schools are city problems, and suburban taxpayers should only be responsible for their own interests.I think these beliefs are at the root of all the anger aimed at urban school districts and urban areas in general. Given the post-WWII suburbanization trends, it is likely that many of those who live in today’s suburbs have never lived in cities. They were raised to believe that their environment was the America that counted; the America that the politicians courted. Until we relearn the lessons of economics that prove how essential cities are to the survival of the suburbs, these beliefs will linger. It is still true that if the cities die, so goes America. It is also true that if the city schools die, so goes America.
[This message has been edited by Pattie Gillett (edited 11-02-2000).] |
Kate Just Got Here
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posted 11-03-2000 11:16 AM
Patti- I was reading DT's article and my first thought was "I hope someone brings up how public schools are funded". I wrote my undergrad thesis on public school funding and property taxes in Mass, so I can get a little long winded on this topic, but I will try to keep this short.It seems like all politicians talk about the sad state of public schools, and giving back control to the local level. But control already is, for the most part, at the local level--because, at least in Massachusetts, the majority of the funds come from local property taxes. I think that, in order to fix what is wrong with public school, we need some broad sweeping changes made to how schools are funded. I don't know what the answer is yet. I'm working on it. As a total Wingnut, I actually stood up in my apartment and applauded Sam's "schools should be temples" speech. I am defiantly in the teacher-as-heroes camp with you. |
Dave Thomer Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 11-03-2000 11:52 AM
Kate, the nature of school funding, and what we have to change in order to correct the disparity in spending, is the topic of my next article . . . I didn't think I could explain the problem AND address solutions at the same time and give either one justice. But as a preview -- yeah, I think you're dead on. Something's got to be done. |
Pattie Gillett True Believer
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posted 11-05-2000 10:50 AM
Kate, Anything you can bring to the conversation would be much appreciated, long-winded or not (especially since you sat through our ramblings). There are very few people out there that are even willing to admit that the funding problem is unfair. I don't think we'll get anywhere until people concede to that reality. Perhaps, in doing your thesis, you may have gathered even more compelling stats and info that you may want to share (hint, hint). |
Kevin Ott True Believer
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posted 11-05-2000 10:32 PM
Lots of control of school district funding at the local level seems like a pretty darn iffy idea to me.I say this based solely on my own experience, which is clearly limited. In central Pennsylvania, where I live, there are lots and lots of two things: Cows and senior citizens. Thus, many of the property tax dollars that fund school districts comes from seniors. Add that to a high poverty level and a generally libertarian sentiment toward paying taxes, and you get a lot of people who are more concerned about keeping their taxes low than they are about providing quality education. Some of the feeling is understandable. It's a blue-collar area, where lots of folks work really hard for not a lot of money, and they don't want to see what they've earned taken away, no matter what for. That's a sentiment I can get behind, especially when I look at the difference between the net and the gross on my already paltry paycheck. In one school district I used to cover when I worked for a newspaper in Huntingdon, some of the seniors (and a few not-so-seniors) had formed a taxpayers' association, a group that aimed to get tax millages reduced to the barest minimum. Many of them got onto the school board through a get-out-the-vote campaign. The result: Two years later, the district lost a school-to-work vocational program and an athletic trainer (a total of about $13,000 a year). Seniors and the taxpayers' group, most of whom had no children, were happy. Parents -- especially parents with kids in athletic or vocational programs -- were aghast. The taxpayers' group reps on the school board said they tried as often as they could to get state and federal grants to pay for school programs and equipment. But, being a socially conservative group, they also tried to institute school prayer, in clear violation of federal law. Ultimately, the composition of the school board changed due to public outcry and a second get-out-the-vote campaign, this time by actual parents. But during the intervening years, had a student athlete been seriously injured on the field, they'd have had to wait for paramedics. All of this happened under local control. It's hard to say that a situation involving state bureaucrats directing the budget would have been any better, but I think a system that lets people who have no children dictate what sorts of educational initiatives can go to other people's children is flawed, especially when the people without children stand to lose money. Like Kate said, I don't know what the solution is, but the current system ain't it. [This message has been edited by Kevin Ott (edited 11-05-2000).] |
slgorman One of the Regulars
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posted 11-06-2000 04:34 PM
quote: ...you get a lot of people who are more concerned about keeping their taxes low than they are about providing quality education.
It seems everyone has the same troubles, everywhere. Here in the sunny state of California, we have our own distinct problems. While we, too, have local school districts paid for by local tax dollars, we also have limited funding given to local districts based on, as best as I can figure out, a ouija board. Acutally, it is based on attendance. Student shows up, school gets $xxxx.xx for that student for that day. I am sure some other systems exist, but I probably wouldn't be able to understand or describe them here.Additionally, we have the imfamous Proposition 13 (passed in the late '70s) which states that property taxes cannot be changed by the State Legislature voting on it but only by the vote of person's in that county. So basically, since homeowners vote to increase their own property taxes, you can imagine how often that happens. And it needs to pass by 2/3 super majority, making increases even more unlikely. Lastly, all bond issues (a popular way of paying for new school construction or existing school infrastructure work) must pass by 2/3 super majority. In my own town, we have one completely over crowded high school. The nineth graders had to be moved back to the middle school years back because their wasn't room in the high school for them. In the last 4 years, we have had a large influx of new residents (spurred by the damned dotcom boom in nearby San Jose), most of them with children. A local developer's family agreed to donate land to build a new, badly needed high school campus. All the city had to do was find money for building it. Three separate attempts to pass a bond issue failed to meet the 2/3 super majority needed. So no new high school. Do I have a point? Yes, I completely agree with the quote I started this out with. I have neighbors who abhor the current state of said overcrowded high school, yet did NOT vote for any of the bond measures. I know they would never vote to up their property taxes. Yet the moan about the state of our school district. It tries my patience. We need a better system. |
Pattie Gillett True Believer
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posted 11-06-2000 06:25 PM
Nice to hear from you sl, and thanks for the insight on CA. What you said just underscores the point that this is a *national* problem. This doesn't just affect "old cities" like NYC or Philly. Even from the the wealthier suburbs, I hear rumblings from older people who say their property taxes are too high and think they shouldn't have to pay for schools they don't use. As you pointed out with the bond issues, too many people feel that schools are not their responsibility. Well, who's responsibility are they? |
Kevin Ott True Believer
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posted 11-06-2000 07:37 PM
I used to work as a tutor in a couple of not-too-wealthy elementary schools in San Diego and National City, a town right outside of San Diego. One thing in particular I remember about all the schools is that they seemed really modular. When the school got too populated, the administrators just got themselves another portable classroom. It seemed to work out okay, until I worked in a school in Chula Vista, where the average paycheck seemed considerably higher, and all the classes were connected by actual hallways.But for the most part, it didn't seem to matter much, since southern California shares weather patterns with heaven, and nobody ever had to worry about walking to class in the rain (at least, until El Nino came along). But having read slgorman's post, it seems that there was something way bigger going on behind the scenes. When I was there, I never really had time to worry about much more than how well my kids were reading and to what degree they were imitating local gang members at recess, so I can imagine how much time the teachers had to worry about securing bond issues. All the more reason to pitch a tent in the teachers-as-heroes camp. [This message has been edited by Kevin Ott (edited 11-06-2000).] [This message has been edited by Kevin Ott (edited 11-06-2000).] |
slgorman One of the Regulars
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posted 11-07-2000 12:45 PM
quote: ...so I can imagine how much time the teachers had to worry about securing bond issues.
I am currently working at a community college. Our community college district consists of two cities. We have one "main" campus in one of these cities, with an "extension" campus in the other. I am one half of the full time faculty for the only program permanently located at the "extension" campus. We are located at a currently unused jr. high. The facilities, while certainly not terrible, are not appropriate to the age of our students (the sink in the restroom is located somewhere around my mid-thigh). When I accepted the position, my division dean described the atmosphere as "pioneer," which was very kind.Our district has been in the process of trying to develop a bond issue to build a modern, new extension campus in this city. It has been pushed back, time-wise, about two years. Solely because no one seems to have time to get out and promote it. I have come to the realization, after speaking with full-time faculty located on the "main" campus who do not teach at my site, that I am going to have to throw *my* shoulder into this measure (I live NOWHERE near the city I work in) if I want to see this happen, all for the benefit of my students. For the record (and completely OT), SD has much nicer weather than Northern California. However, No. Cal. has much nicer weather compared to just about anywhere but So. Cal.  |
Dave Thomer Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 11-07-2000 06:50 PM
sl, and any other teachers out there, can you give us any sense of how the environment and facilities affect the learning experience? So far, all my teaching has been at Temple University in Philadelphia, an urban campus with a good library and decent, if somewhat Spartan, classrooms, so I don't think I've been negatively affected by any of the kind of things sl raises. Now, if the classrroom were a nicer one, with carpets and nice lighting and comfy chairs, perhaps that might help a little, but I don't think it would be a HUGE effect on an Intro to Phil class. |
slgorman One of the Regulars
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posted 11-07-2000 07:39 PM
Our facilities space is very limited. I teach in a curriculum which requires loads of laboratory time for aquisition of pyschomotor skills, so the small space for our Skills Lab impacts our teaching loads. Our accreditation (specialized accreditation, not the general school-wide accreditation) requires all lab hours have a student:teacher ration of 16:1. Most programs accomplish this by having a primary lab instructor, who is usually full-time faculty paid at higher rate, and a lab assistant, who is adjunct faculty paid at a lower rate. This way our maximum allowed student body (32) can be accommodated in one lab section with the two instructors. At my facility, we can only comfortably accomodate 16 student in the Skills Lab at a time due to the space constraints. Hence, I, as the primary and *only* instructor, run two sections of each lab. Basically, I have one three hour lab from 3:30 to 6:50 and then do the same thing again from 7:00 to 9:50. It is a monumental waste of resources, namely my time. Our program is paying me, at the higher rate, when I could have an assistant help out and cut back my time by three hours. In the name of honesty, I will admit, this current situation benfits me. I end up with a smaller overall teaching load, and three hours repeated is easier than three new hours teaching something else to maintain my current load. I am in the process of preparing a proposal to get us larger space, eliminating this problem overall. That, I assure you, is another headache altogether.  Our lecture space, on the other hand, is the envy of all instructors at my site. Carpet, new desks, auditorium style seating for ~45 with great capabilites for power point presentations. [As I re-read that, it doesn't sound that impressive. Let me restate--I am housed in what was, until recently, a JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL. Does that help?] We adore it, but will most likely have to sacrifice it (or at least not horde it to ourselves like we do now) to gain the increased lab space. Did I ever mention that Compromise is my middle name? [This message has been edited by slgorman (edited 11-07-2000).] |
Kevin Ott True Believer
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posted 11-14-2000 09:51 PM
For a more humorous angle on this whole debate, check out this piece over at The Onion. |
Dave Thomer Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 11-14-2000 10:01 PM
How much did I love this suggestion:Develop a working model for a reformed educational system that addresses the needs of every child at a reasonable taxpayer cost. Then become powerful and implement that system. |
Dave Thomer Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 01-11-2001 03:51 PM
Progress may be being made on this front. New York State just lost a major court case regarding the method by which it funds schools; the judge is demanding that the state equalize funding for urban districts. It's a start. Check out New York Daily News coverage of the case, and remind me to check out the Campaign for Fiscal Equity for March's Policy update. |
Dave Thomer Guardian of Peace and Justice in the Galaxy
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posted 02-23-2001 12:35 AM
I'm in the process of writing the long-awaited followup to this piece, which will appear in our rapidly approaching March update. (Wow. Time flies. I feel like we just got February done.) If anyone has suggestions on specific methods to reform education spending, or links to articles on same, I'd love to hear 'em. | |