This Is Not News

Continued from Part 2

DT: Speaking of the relationship between penciller and inker, I remember in one of the Pounding My Chest columns for Gorilla, you talked about scanning your pencil artwork into a computer and being able to zap it to the other members of the creative team. Does something like that help you say, “hold on a sec, this isn’t quite what I had in mind?”

BK: Definitely – it meant that James (Pascoe) could email me scans of the inks and if there were any areas we didn’t feel happy with I could re-draw them more clearly or he could just re-ink them after we’d talked.

DT: Would you ever consider skipping the middleman and using some kind of electronic tablet?

BK: I do actually use one, but as part of the layout process – I’ve yet to see anyone quite capture the nuances of real pencils and inks – I’m sure it’ll happen though! I use a computer a lot to mess with designs and layouts before the real penciling gets done.

DT: Now that you mention layouts and design, I was wondering if maybe you could take me through the process a little bit — what kind of choices do you make while you’re setting up a page. The example that really struck me was the spread in Empire issue 1 that introduced Xanna. The shot of the daggers almost coming out of the page toward the reader, followed up by the shift in perspective so we see the daggers around Sebirus’ head, was really striking.

BK: Well like most artists I start with a thumbnail drawing of the page – just to workout very simply what I want to tell in each panel and roughly how the design of the page will look. I really like innovative design, but I also feel that the clarity of the storytelling is paramount. I always try to lead the reader through the story in the way I want them to read it. Once the basic layout is done I do very high contrast roughs at printed size of the pages placing all the blacks to make sure the layout is clear and reads as it should . . . in fact two issues of Shadow of the Bat were printed from these – not my choice – but if anyone is interested to see what they look like!

DT: And how do you want the reader to read a spread like that?

BK: Well this would be a lot easier if I could point to the page for you, but I think there’s a kind of ‘s’ design to the first half as your eye follows the knives from Xanna’s hand to flying straight at you (the reader) there’s definite movement. Then a static pose of Sebirus . . . a sudden stop like the knives in the wall around him. The rest of the page is fairly standard left/right movement . . . Sebirus moving away from Xanna implying the lack of real contact between them . . . is that what you had in mind with your question?

DT: Pretty much, yeah. I was just struck when I looked back at it the way you took advantage of the fact that you’d been using Sebirus’ perspective for the introductions, then made the switch to a more third-person perspective.

BK: Well also Xanna was the last of the characters introduced in that segment so the transition had to be made there and it seemed a good way to do it!

DT: So what can we expect from the future of Empire? What kind of special package do you have in mind for the re-release of issues 1 and 2? And will you be sticking with the “new-reader-friendly” concept?

BK: The future of Empire will be full of more surprises! The revelations about Endymion are obviously just beginning, but there’s all sorts of things in the works that I think will continue to surprise the readers. As to the other parts of your question I’m really not sure. I guess we need to sit down with the DC folks and our editor there – Joey Cavalieri – and work that out. I know we talked briefly about a low priced double sized reissue – it would nice to add some extra new things . . . but nothing in it so anyone would feel they have to buy the story twice . . . I guess that’s the tough balance to aim for . . . it’ll take some thought I’m sure . . . so I guess the answer is . . . I don’t know yet!

DT: There’s no time frame on when we might see the rerelease and when new issues would follow?

BK: The plan is to relaunch and then have the following issues come out . . . dare I say it . . . on time and monthly . . . but no decision’s been taken as to when that will be – again we need to sit down with the marketing folks at DC and see what they think would work best. Ideally the reissue would be out a month before the new issues started appearing.

DT: You mentioned that “One day I’ll be happy with my work…. I hope!” Looking back at your career, what stands out as work you can point to and say, “Yeah, that stands up . . . I’m glad my name is on that”?

BK: Hhhmmmm – well most stuff I’m actually proud of . . . it’s just that I can always see area where I would like to improve things. I’m always proud of what I send in – or I wouldn’t send it in. I respect the readers too much for that! I just think that any artist worth his salt should always want to improve . . . my biggest disappointments in any field of art is when I feel like a creator/actor/musician is just coasting instead of putting their whole heart into it. An editor once complained that I cared too much about my work… which I took as a huge compliment . . . and hope never to change. 🙂

DT: Understandably so . . . to rephrase it then . . . what would you consider the highlights of your career so far, or your favorite pieces of work?

BK: If I had to pick a favorite single issue . . . probably the Black Canary issue of Shadow of the Bat. As a run I’m incredibly proud of LEGION as a whole. I’m still very happy with how Batman: Book of the Dead came out. I guess, though, the first two issues of Empire take top spot at the moment – though I think the Dark Knight pages I’ve been working on recently are probably my best ever art wise . . . Bet you wished you’d never asked that question. 🙂

DT: Not at all. Looking to the present and future once again — when you look at the comics industry these days, what do you see? Who’s doing good work? And how do you think we can get that good work in more people’s hands?

BK: If I knew the answer to that last part . . .

DT: It is the 64 thousand dollar question of the moment, isn’t it?

BK: Without question!

DT: Which seems like a shame . . . there seems to be so much good work out there right now, and you’d think that that would be enough.

BK: Trouble is there is also a lot which isn’t so good and if you’re not already a comic reader it must be a bewildering choice to make to take that first leap into the field . . . am I mixing metaphors now?

DT: Perhaps, but what’s a metaphor good for if not for mixing?

BK: As to who’s doing good work – so many folks I’d be shy of answering that – I am on record as being a devoted Kevin Nowlan fan!

DT: He’s always someone whose work I feel like I should have read more of.

BK: Kevin is definitely an artist’s artist I think. I’m also huge fan of all my friends . . . a list of whom would be far too long to give now . . . and I’d probably get myself in trouble by forgetting someone! 🙂

Continued from Part 1

(Parts 2 and 3 of the interview were conducted later in the day than Part 1.)

DT: How are you this evening?

BK: I’m fine – my back is aching a little from bending over the drawing board for a day, but that’s not too great a burden to bear is it! 🙂

DT: In the long run, probably not. 🙂 What’ve you been drawing?

BK: I’ve been inking some of my Legends of the Dark Knight arc . . . my inking posture is worse than my penciling one I think…

DT: Is there a difference in how you approach a project if you’re doing pencils-only vs. pencils-and-inks?

BK: When I know I’m inking it I tend to be a little more open with the pencils as I know I’ll be able to improve on the images at the inking stage . . . I learned a long time ago that you can’t expect an inker to second guess you, so when pencilling for someone else I try to be very tight with what I draw.

DT: So how much more time does it take you to pencil and ink a page vs. pencils only?

BK: Well I always used to think it took about the same time, but I’ve become so precious with my inking that it takes about half or possibly twice as long again. The more inking I’ve done, ironically, the slower I’ve gotten I think – although I enjoy it more all the time. The Legends arc I’ve just finished is something I’m very proud of! (See a page from the upcoming story.)

DT: What can you tell us about it?

BK: Well it’s written by Doug Moench – renewing the partnership we had from Batman: Book of the Dead. The story features some new characters from Batman’s past and ask some pretty fundamental questions about his whole persona. In fact Andy Helfer felt it raised so many questions that a sequel is already in the works.

DT: So the sequel isn’t something that was originally planned?

BK: No the sequel grew out of this first arc – which is self-contained but rather begged a follow up!

DT: You seem to keep coming back to Batman in the last few years . . . any particular reason?

BK: I always wanted to draw Batman – he remains my favorite character – so any chance I get to draw him I take it!

DT: What’s the appeal?

BK: I guess I just love the design of the costume and cape . . . and I’ve always preferred the dark side of characters to the shiny one! That said I did enjoy my run on Superman very much, but never felt I quite had the same affinity for him as Batman – though I would like to work on improving my Superman if the chance ever comes up.

DT: You were also drawing him during the long-hair phase, if I recall correctly.

BK: That’s right – on Superman – I came on board just after he came back from the dead.

DT: What was the difference in working on a book like that, with an established character with an established look — even if the hair length was being tweaked — versus working on LEGION, where you pretty much designed everything from the ground up?

BK: I suppose the real difference was that I felt much more aware that the readers had expectations of the characters before I arrived and I felt those expectations needed to be respected. On LEGION I felt like I had pretty much total freedom to do what I felt was right and that the readers would probably go along with me as they were always incredibly supportive. It’s a very different thing to consider messing with an icon:-)

DT: You didn’t feel like fans of the Legion [of Super-Heroes] were sitting there waiting for you to do something ‘wrong’? [The Legion of Super-Heroes (LSH) operates in the 30th Century of the DC Universe, and has been around since the 1950s. LEGION was a 20th Century ‘precursor’ team that first appeared in 1989.]

BK: I never did actually – I think the LEGION readers were much more forgiving than I’ve heard the LSH ones tend to be – but then I wasn’t messing with any lengthy history or continuity, as I’d been with LEGION since issue #1 and designed most of the characters I felt pretty confident I knew what was going on! 😉 I’ve always made a point of reading every letter sent into each comic I work on if I can so I keep a pretty close finger on the readers’ pulse.

DT: So there was a separation between the LSH and the LEGION, and their respective fan bases?

BK: Well I’ve never really been closely involved with the LSH much though I loved them as a kid, but I’ve heard rumors that the fans can be pretty tough on the writers sometimes. The LEGION readers may well have been LSH readers too, but as I said before I wasn’t mucking about with any continuity that was dear to their hearts with LEGION – I tried very hard to respect their territory and keep our continuity self-contained – though with the fairly frequent nod to LSH stories.

DT: Has the readers’ response to something you’ve written or drawn ever really surprised you?

BK: I’m always surprised when anyone is nice to me. 🙂 Actually, joking aside I have always been very pleasantly surprised by the readers generosity to me. Even the critics have been reasonable people . . . so far. 🙂

DT: Well there’s a lot to be said for that. I know things got a little hairy at the Gorilla message board toward the end.

BK: I have to be honest – I was something of an absentee toward the end due to some health issues in the family that kept me pretty much away from the boards – I’m sorry about that too for anyone reading this – I do think it’s important to keep a dialogue going and for all of us who are concerned for the comics world to pull together – and to discuss things rationally – I can understand readers’ annoyance when things happen as they did with Gorilla and they aren’t fully in the loop as to what is going on, but real life rather kept me away from it. The only thing that did hurt a little was when some people jumped to the wrong conclusions and voiced opinions without finding out what the real story was . . .

DT: But to stick with LEGION for a moment . . . you did the first 17 issues, then took a six issue break. I look at those first 17 issues, and particularly as they go on I can see that they came from you . . . but then when you came back from the break, you had much more of the distinctive style that I associate with you. What changed during those six months?

BK: Well I think the biggest change was that when I came back I was inking myself. I do genuinely try to keep improving my work so I hope that I’m succeeding . . . One day I’ll be happy with my work . . . I hope!

DT: The interesting thing is that the change that came from you inking your work is still evident in your pencil-only work . . . it seemed like some of the characters’ body and facial structure changed slightly, there was more detail in the work; I recall Lobo in particular looked very different during your two runs. Did the inking experience teach you something about your penciling?

BK: I think so – I think I had always been going for the more detailed look to the work, but had been rather ridiculously assuming my poor inker knew that I wanted him to add all the textures etc that I had in mind! I don’t think I was very fair on him at all in that first run 🙂 I had actually always inked myself on Judge Dredd so LEGION was my first prolonged run with anyone else inking me.

Continued in Part 3

Barry Kitson is one comics’ top pencilers. He first attracted notice on the science fiction title L.E.G.I.O.N. ’89, and has since done stints on some of DC Comics’ most famous characters, including Superman, Batman, and the Justice League of America. Last summer he branched into creator-owned comics, publishing Empire with longtime creative partner Mark Waid under the Gorilla imprint for Image Comics. The story of an evil overlord who falls victim to none of the classic blunders and does take over the world, Empire‘s first two issues were a fascinating glimpse of a world gone mad. Look all you want for sympathetic characters; those few you find may not be around long. Unfortunately, the Gorilla partners were misled by people outside of Image on certain matters of funding, and the resultant financial problems meant the end of Gorilla. For some time it looked like Empire would not be back.

Fortunately, Waid and Kitson have found a new home for Empire at the Homage Comics imprint of DC’s Wildstorm division. Fresh off the news, I had the chance to talk to Kitson about the book, its new lease on life, and his career.

DT: So what is the news with Empire?

BK: Basically that the book will be becoming an Homage title as part of the DC group and that we will get a chance to – at last – publish the whole story without having all the problems with were struggling with at Gorilla – none of which were Gorilla’s fault! Mark and I will retain creative ownership and the whole team will be as per issues 1 and 2 . . . [with inker James Pascoe and colorist Chris Sotomayor] which we are hoping to have reissued in a special package so people who missed it first time round can pick up on the story!

DT: Now what exactly is the difference between publishing through Image and publishing through DC/Homage?

BK: The main difference is that under Gorilla’s arrangement at Image we had to pay for all the publishing, printing, a fee to have the Image ‘I’ and pay all the creators upfront – well before the books could come out. Also as a smaller imprint the printing costs were vastly higher under Image than for DC so the book cost alot more to produce than it will under the DC banner. We could have reduced quality of paper, story length, etc., but we really didn’t want to do that! Actually I may have got that wrong about the order the bills came in – printing, etc. may have been after publishing… but before we made any money 🙂

DT: Are they handling more of the logistics? On the Gorilla message boards, it sounded like you were one of the guys having to keep track of all the pieces.

BK: As to the logistics – it’s true there really was no one other than ourselves putting everything together for production at Gorilla. Ann Busiek was working really hard to keep all the editorial pages running and stuff, for which we will be eternally grateful – but as for getting all the pages put together it was down to us and paying the guys at Comicraft to do the work – like put ‘film’ together for printers etc.

DT: Which must have made the financial issues even more fun. At some point I’d like to get back to the whole Gorilla project, but for now let’s talk about Empire itself. You say you’re going to publish “the whole story” — does that mean that Empire is a finite series now?

BK: Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply anything about the length of the Empire tale other than it can go on being told . . . right from the start we said it might run for years or it might end tomorrow . . . we want people not to be able to assume too much . . . We have got definite objectives to reach in the story and we know where it will be going for a certain number of issues, but we also wanted the characters to drive the book – so that we will be ‘in their hands’ to some extent. It’s very possible that all the characters we’ve seen so far will not survive for long 🙂

DT: That element of surprise has got to be one of the fun things about the book. Even though I should have, I never saw Sebirus’ death coming in the first issue.

BK: That was exactly what we wanted… in fact it surprised us a little in our initial planning he had been going to be an ongoing figure! That’s what I meant about character driven events! 🙂

DT: At exactly what point did you realize, “No, he has to go?” And was there any resistance on your part to change plans right from the get-go?

BK: We just realized half way through plotting issue one that killing him was the ‘logical’ thing for Golgoth to do despite their history. Retaining power is Golgoth’s paramount concern.

DT: OK, that brings up something else I’ve been curious about. The credits of the book say Mark’s the writer and you’re the penciller, but it feels like you’re involved in the plotting. How exactly does the creative process with Mark work?

BK: Well we used the term ‘storytellers’ for both of us on JLA Year One and that confused a lot of people 🙂

DT: I saw you had that credit on the first issue of Brave and the Bold, then switched to more conventional titles on the second issue.

BK: What happens is that we discuss the story together initially and form a rough outline of events then Mark will prepare an initial plot, which we’ll go over together. Next I provide a set of ‘thumbnails’ for the story for Mark to look through and react to with new ideas etc. and we have another discussion – after that I will draw up the pencilled pages and Mark will add the dialogue to those. So every step of the way we’re in contact and honing the story – I really enjoy the process!

DT: Does that work better because you’ve worked together on so many other projects, or is that an approach you can take with other writers?

BK: The approach generally depends on the writer – but I’ve been lucky enough to work this way with a lot of my past collaborators – Alan Grant in particular. Doug Moench is also very open to sharing ideas, but he likes to get everything down in plot form first before I get involved. Karl Kesel was also kind enough to let me chip in on the plots on Adventures of Superman too. I think it was really only on Azrael – where Denny O’Neil liked to work with full scripts – that my input was pretty minimal as to the plot lines.

DT: Getting back to Empire: what is it, in general terms, you want to accomplish with this story? What motivated you to make it your first creator owned story, and what motivated you to work to find a second home for it?

BK: We wanted to tell a story that had elements that readers would feel familiar with . . . costumed characters etc, but be able to take a totally fresh look at the genre . . . which I think we were [doing]. . . we wanted to try something away from all the accepted conventions of superhero books . . . i.e., the bad guys won, major characters die, etc., etc. Just play with the conventions and people’s expectations and have fun! The reaction to the book was so positive and we enjoyed working on it so much that we really didn’t want to let it just disappear because of things outside the creative process. It was important for us to tell the story if we could and keep the creative team together – we’d all enjoyed working on the book, the readers had liked it and we didn’t want to stop! 🙂

DT: We’re running short on time for this first section, so let me ask you this: besides Empire, what else do you have in the works?

BK: I’m just finishing up a Legends of the Dark Knight arc, written by Doug [in issues 146-148]. There will be a second one to come too. I have a prestige format book with Howard Chaykin and David Tischman [a sequel to the Secret Society of Super-Heroes miniseries] coming up and there’s a good chance of a regular DC monthly book too – so I’ll be going back to penciling only 🙂

Continued in Part 2